13 thoughts on “eBay faces the angry mob in Melbourne last night”

1. Hi Nathan,
   I appreciate your outlook on this, but see major flaws with PayPal’s current structure. Have you fully read the PayPal user agreement to see what voids seller protection? Was the question of multiple shipping raised at the meeting you attended? Under section 4.2.4. of the PayPal user agreement Multiple shipping voids seller protection, thus leading to a massive cost and labour increase for sellers who sell multiple items to single buyers (and each item aty this stage must be individually registered).

   Any unwitting seller who lists a pick-up-only item is now required to offer PayPal as a payment option, but they are playing Russian Roulette with their money, as a claim of non-receival will automatically see the funds returned to the buuyer as there is no suitable “proof of shipping” for pick-up-only items.

   You have said: “Some concerns were raised, like the ability of media sellers using regular post to provide proof of shipment, and these issues will get investigated which is good news.”
   Surely all of these issues should have been addressed long before introducing the policy. In the last few weeks, the PayPal site has been innaccessable by BigPond users (how does that play when they are REQUIRED to use the site to pay for any and all purchases? ), and PayPal has been taking payment funds from bank accounts when they are only being authorised to take it from PayPal balances. How can anyone have confidence in the security of a system with such fundamental faults at this point?

   There are some serious issues here, and yes, I am thinking longer term.

   Kevin

2. Kevin,

   I agree that there remain some issues with the policies.
   Given that Paypal and eBay had been throwing around this idea of Paypal only payments on the site since late last year I too would have thought they had been through every scenario.

   In our Q&A session the question about types of transactions that generated the most pain for buyers/sellers was put to Simon and Lisa.

   ‘Pickup’ from memory was well down near the bottom of the list so it is possible that Paypal don’t see the issue of Paypal payments and pickup/proof of shipment as a big one, but I would be guessing.

   The multiple item policy wording is interesting. I checked with my customer service staff. We do a reasonable volume of sales each month (2000+ transactions), often send multiple products to a single address and have not had a Paypal issue, so I can’t comment on it really.

   One thing I can say is that I hope the attitude from senior management (like Andrew Pipolo etc) is translated well down to policy wording and help desk staff and the decision trees they work from.

   I felt Andrew’s attitude was positive and genuine in our discussion and they took on any comments that we had. They also agreed that more improvements and refinements would come, so emails to them, comments in forums, (comments on my blog etc) all help to highlight issues to them. They made it clear that they wanted to work on policy and protection levels for both buyers and sellers going forward, but to do this they have to see what the effects of these changes are before they act.

   Maybe I am one of the luckier PayPal users, having had very few issues indeed, ( but interestingly I think we receive about 1000 Paypal payments a month)

   Are you a seller Kevin? Large/small? What have your experiences with Paypal been?

3. Hi Nathan,
   I sell on Ebay. I am a small seller but it is a major part of my income (I put my selling list in the URL behind my name above to give you an idea of how I operate). I have had no personal problems with PayPal, and my overall feeling is that you have to be unlucky to have problems with PayPal, but if you do, they can have serious repercussions for a small business (or an individual in the case of the Pick-Up-Only anomalies).

   I have been on Ebay for over ten years, and resisted using PayPal at all until BidPay closed at the same time as Ebay changed their safe payments policy. While I resented being forced to use PayPal (which I still do not trust), PayPal definitely improved sales for me. While I have always been aware of the associated risks, it is a convenient and useful payment option, but I will not base my business around it – and will not list on any site that has a PayPal only policy – I believe that the UK site will follow shortly after Australia.

   I feel strongly enough about the issue that I drafted a 7 page submission to the ACCC outlining my concerns. It can be found here in the format it was submitted (and is now on the ACCC site as well) :
   http://www.natronics.com.au/~catalogs/ACCCSubmission.doc

   The pinks on the Australian board have given conflicting interpretations of the multiple shipping policy, some saying that all transactions paid for in one payment can be shipped together, others saying that there is no way of knowing how many items are in a package, so each item must be sent (and registered) separately to be covered by seller protection. Importantly the User Agreement is THE legal document that determines this, and no references to posts by Pinks or conversations with the PayPal heirarchy will change the obligations as they are written in the User Agreement. Section 4.2.4. states that seller protection is voided if “combine items purchased through separate eBay transactions into a single shipment” – change the word Ebay to PayPal, and then multiple shipping is acceptable on all items paid for in a single payment, but as it stands combining multiple items in a single parcel removes your rights as a seller. That said, I will take the risk – I sold 7 brochures this morning for US $166 to Britain, I will send them together as it will cost about 15 percent of sending them insured separately (for both parties), but if the buyer makes a claim I lose because I have voided seller protection by the User Agreement that Australian and European / UK sellers are signed up to. American sellers CAN send multiple purchases in a single parcel and be covered.

   You can’t tell me that I (or my buyers) am safer under this circumstance than if I accept a cheque, money order or direct credit card payment. It is more convenient if nothing goes wrong, but convenience is not safety nor protection, and losing a proportion of buyers will not represent value for money for this policy change (I sell through auction format only, so competitive bidding is important to me and my livelihood).

   Kind regards, Kevin

4. Kevin,

   I read yesterday that the ACCC has had over 200 submissions now. It remains to be seen whether any action can or will be taken.

   I wonder if the strength of the reaction from sellers (and buyers) as caught eBay a little by surprise?

5. Just to let you know, the meeting was filmed and the sound from the meeting recorded, hence the roving microphone girls. It was mentioned to those present that it was being filmed for documentary purposes. I believe those present have a right to request this film if they feature on it, as a privacy issue.
   just FYI!

6. G’day Nathan,

   There are 299 submissions on this page as of the minute prior to me starting to write this:
   http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/823668/fromItemId/336311/display/submission

   The ACCC has mostly beeen running more than a week behind. There was a claim earlier this week that someone was told by the ACCC that they had received just over 700 submissions, but there is a LOT of misinformation on the Ebay forums.

   I don’t see how they could have not seen the massive outcry coming for this, and I do believe that that is why it is being tested on the “small” Australian market. Test is the word of Ebay’s CEO, John Donahoe, who claimed that if the test was successful, the company would introduce it in other countries “in months, not years.” Of course if the “test” is unsuccessful it has an impact on more than 50,000 Australian livelihoods, but Ebay has never considered the impact on the marketplace and people’s livings when they test anything:
   Look at the faulty search engine that they opted people into without their knowledge for more than 6 months which could only find results for 2 and 4 items when there were thousands listed – example http://www.thehowcafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7462 – I got opted into it two weeks after encountering that thread, only 40% of my auctions showed up in view sellers other auctions, and searches for my own items would show two to four other items and never mine. I only knew to look for the opt out because of that thread, MANY people were randomly opted into that search without their knowledge and undoubtedly their bids were lost when they could not find what they were actually searching for. That search engine was NOT FIT to be tested in an active commercial marketplace and Ebay kept it active for at least six months. Imagine for a minute if the stock exchange just “tested” how playing with policy and tools affected the way that the market operated and ignored the immediate impacts. Ebay may have much lower individual transaction values, but it does impact on millions of people’s livelihoods worldwide. The marketplace is successful at this point IN SPITE of Ebay’s management, not because of it.

   Sorry if this shows unnecessary ire and contempt. I AM frustrated. I know that I have to change my method of livelihood in coming months, in spite of the marketplace being very strong, but because the sharemarket believes that unrealistic levels of growth should be maintained instead of allowing a very successful business to level out and still rake in very lucrative profits. The current shift is very clearly towards stores and retail type merchandise, but ignores that Ebay is not a retail site. The last time they shifted in this direction they set up good store structures and deals and then decided to return to “core listings” (auctions) and pulled the rug out from under a huge number of sellers who had taken their lead. The current direction is discouraging small sellers and those who list the eclectic, old and unusual. So be it, but it was part of the appeal that attracted the vast numbers of people to the site in the first place. The current promotion on Ebay France, free listing of fixed price items that use PRE-FILLED information says it all, they want everyone listing standard new items, but if everyone lists the same stuff the only sellers that can win are those who have the lowest buying price (eg: buying out a liquidation or store close out), to the detriment of all other sellers. This is a dangerous road for Ebay to take (in my opinion), as once you remove the interesting old and eclectic, there really isn’t much to distinguish Ebay from any other retail site, and people are likely to shift to bigger retail names to buy retail. I use Ebay’s auction format to attract competition and higher prices for my goods (and mostly select goods that are not readily available so that there is a reason to compete for them). By encouraging buyers to compete with each other higher prices can be achieved, by encouraging seller to list the exact same items and compete with each other for the privilege can only bring the market down to the lowest viable price, thus if someone has bought items from a liquidation for ten cents on the dollar they can be profitable at wholesale rates, while every other seller struggles to maintain viability – the marketplace can not survive viably in that way. Instead of using variety to attract buyers, Ebay has taken the route of “value” and are now trying to increase seller costs while encouraging them to offer free shipping, the blue strip across the top of every page includes “at low prices on Ebay”, and every attempt is being made to lower the price structure while increasing the fee structure. How do sellers of retail items absorb this?

   I am an auctioneer by trade (and will probably go back into running live auctions in the foreseeable future), so I am probably looking at this marketplace with much different eyes to you. Am I just being short sighted, or have I lost sight of the real future of Ebay? Do you, for example, see the directions Ebay has taken all of this year in particular as being profoundly advantageous to you as a power-seller?

   Kind Regards, Kevin

7. Bob,

   I don’t think eBay would want that herion comment out in more of a public domain. It has already made some international press.
   I would be interested in watching the session though.

8. Kevin,

   Indeed, this has brought about the ire of a lot of sellers.
   But eBay has always had a very vocal crowd, as it is much more of a ‘community’ based site than say Amazon, Overstock or Yahoo Auctions. And I think the voice of the sellers is often louder here in Australia because we have fewer alternative marketplaces. For a seller in the US, who might only do 30% of their business on eBay and the rest in other channels, well they may not complain as loudly. In the US it is a little easier to vote with your feet.

   I will have a go at answering your questions:
   As for my business, I am not afraid of the change in the medium to long term. If a buyer and seller are both confident in using eBay, this will eventually be a good thing.

   I have spoken to a number of other Powersellers (Platinum and above mostly) and the only negative feeling I have received from them is the fear of short term loss of sales and a little mistrust that some of these protection policies won’t get ammended well enough. Otherwise they tend to agree that the change will eventually be positive for the marketplace.

   I like Paypal and what it offers my business. So do a lot of other Powersellers. But most probably don’t want to stand up and say it in case they get boo’d too!

   I honestly think that there are just as many sellers out there who would be happy for the change.

   For a volume business, Paypal offers instant payment (no chasing up bank payment details, processing cheques, finding lost payments etc) and easy management. It is a good tool to use, and I have always found access to the site to be reliable and transfer of funds back to our account reliable as well.

   I, like my other Powerseller associates, as looking at ways in which we will need to change our businesses to adapt. We can only presume the change will go through and the ACCC won’t halt it. We have our own websites off eBay and may use some other channels too. Customers may buy more from our websites as we may offer more payment options.

   We treat eBay as customer acquisition, but still rely on sales from it quite heavily.

   We have already changed strategies for some of our accounts in the last 6 months due to other changes in the eBay marketplace.
   We have to adapt to the market to stay on top of it.

   So, to answer your question, do I see the directions Ebay has taken all of this year in particular as being profoundly advantageous to me as a power-seller?

   Not profoundly advantageous, but yes, I think the outcome in 6 months time will be a more positive experience for me as a volume seller. But I am an optimist. I like the fact the new management in the USA are being more forward looking and taking action.

   But, I hope there isn’t much of a drop in sales though in the short term. I hope PayPal management continue to work at improving policy and service and eBay can market their reasons for change effectively.

   Cheers

9. Quote: “We can only presume the change will go through and the ACCC won’t halt it.”

   Even if they do, it appears that it is likely that it will take 12 months to do so, in which case you are certainly correct to base your business planning around the changes.

   I have not found many comments anywhere, outside of Ebay employees, that have been positive about these changes, so I appreciate your comments and outlook.

   Good luck with it all. I hope that the changes do help some sellers, I don’t think it will be to my advantage but for the past five years I have worked on alternative plans being needed because you don’t know when Ebay decisions will interfere with your own business. I have those plans loosely considered, and when I give Ebay away will give away selling on-line completely.

   Kind regards, Kevin

10. Kevin,

    I believe it is the larger sellers who have online stores and larger turnover that will be less affected. We can absorb a drop in sales a little more easily in most cases.

    For casual sellers or home based businesses this is far more difficult. It will be these sellers that may really hurt in the short term as a result of this decision.

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12. interesting coments. What about the fact that a great number of power sellers have had huge ammounts of money held by pay pal with no indication of return of these funds. They have also been supended as traders by ebay and are still chasing through an obstacle course of hand balling ebay representatives a hopefull return of their money deposited in pay pal. The accc has done a half assed job as per usual being the toothless tiger that it is and alowed australian battlers to be bullied by ebay . Shame on he acccc and shame on ebay. Start talking about this on your forums .

13. Kevin,
    The issue you raise might be appropriate for another post.

    How many other sellers are in this position? I have heard occasionally of PayPal accounts getting ‘frozen’ for one reason or another, and this is concerning, but I have never been contacted by one of these sellers, nor do I know the reasons PayPal might have for doing this.

    Is this a specific issue at the moment? Or has it been an issue for a while? maybe email me via my contact form, I would be interested in some more info about this…